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Live From Studio 1A: Morality on TODAY

Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2007 9:00 AM by Dan Fleschner
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In watching this morning's show, I was struck by the connection between two stories we did in our 7:30 half hour -- they both dealt, in one way or another, with questions of morality. I'm talking about the labor dispute over the upcoming CBS reality show "Kid Nation" WATCH VIDEO and the latest on the Michael Vick dogfighting situation. WATCH VIDEO

**FILE** Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick ...
Tom Uhlman/AP File

Let's take a closer look at these stories, because they force us to ask certain basic questions about morality.

First, the "Kid Nation" discussion. CBS is producing a reality show in which 40 kids, ages 8 to 15, were placed in a New Mexico "ghost town" for 40 days to see if they could create a functioning society without adults.

I'm not a particular fan of reality TV shows, but I have to admit that when I saw the promos for this one, I was intrigued. It sounded like an interesting thought experiment, a real-life (in so far as reality TV is "real") Lord of the Flies scenario. But knowing how things worked out in William Golding's book, I got a little queasy at the thought as well.

Legal issues have emerged as to whether the producers of the show violated child labor laws. The New York Times reported this morning that the kids were required to do "whatever they were told by the show's producers, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, or risk expulsion from the show," according to a contract between the producers, the kids and their parents.

The contract also "specifies that while the children could be paid for their participation, those payments or the agreement to be fully under the producers’ direction did not constitute employment under the producers’ interpretation and therefore was not subject to any state or federal labor laws."

CBS has defended its and the producers' actions, and the New Mexico attorney general has found no violations.

But I think there are additional questions to ask here -- whether it's appropriate for parents to subject their children to the requirements mentioned in the contract.

What would motivate parents to permit their kids to be put in this situation? Fame? Money? Or is this really no different than sending your kids to summer camp -- only in this case, with cameras rolling 24 hours a day?

And what about the accountability of the show producers? Does this idea exploit children (who have obviously volunteered to participate) or is it fair game to put them in a reality show like this?

As for the Michael Vick case, there are few who would dispute that what Vick is accused of is reprehensible. If you saw the recent HBO "Real Sports" segment on dogfighting, you'd be disgusted. And I think that anyone who defends dogfighting is misguided, to say the least.

But I think it is worth asking whether the NFL should allow Michael Vick back into the league should he end up pleading guilty and serving time for his role in this case. R.L. White, the president of the Atlanta chapter of the NAACP took a lot of heat for saying, among other things, "We believe that once he has paid his debt to society, society should be able to forgive him and allow him to resume his career."

On the one hand, if he serves his time, I could see some NFL owners willing to give him another chance (the cynic in me says he's way too talented on the football field for him not to be given another shot). But on the other hand, playing in the NFL is a privilege, not a right. And I could see the NFL attempting to ban him altogether on moral grounds (cynic: public relations) -- though I'm not sure if that would be legally feasible. Would someone who is not a professional athlete lose their job for something like this?

One other point to address here -- New York Knicks guard Stephon Marbury seemed to defend the culture of dogfighting, saying, "We don't say anything about people who shoot deer or shoot other animals. You know, from what I hear, dogfighting is a sport. It's just behind closed doors."

Marbury is known for his controversial and sometimes nonsensical comments, but this one got me thinking.

Of course, from a legal perspective he's absolutely wrong. Hunting is legal, dogfighting is not. Period.

But if, for the sake of argument, we were to remove hunting from the political context in which it lives in this country, I think it's a fair question to ask -- is there a moral difference between killing an animal for sport and training two animals to kill each other for sport?

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Comments

Matt Lauer committed a real blunder by even mentioning the name Peyton Manning in the same sentence with Michael Vick. Manning is about as clean cut an individual as is playing football today. He would never be involved in such cruelty and subculturism. Tell him to try another comparison next time!!!

Gayle Page (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 9:26 AM)

This coming from a mother, grandmother and great grandmother....Football players are supposed to be 'role models' for our youth.  As such, to engage in an horendous activity such as 'dog fighting' completely removes Mr. Vick from being a suitable 'role model' for our youth and therefore he should not be permitted to resume his career with the NFL.  As a football 'hero' he [and all athletes] have a 'code of ethics' to adhere to and he has clearly chosen to ignore such a code.

J Campana, Anderson, SC (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 9:38 AM)

One of the main differences between deer hunting and dog fighting is most people kill the deer with one shot and use the meat for food.  People who fight dogs torture them and enjoy doing so.  These animals die a slow, horrific death.  The NAACP almost always protests or speaks out about a situation before people enter a plea or before the facts are known, so it made me quite angry when Matt Lauer attacked the PETA representative for the organizations protests before the plea was entered by Vick.  Rarely does an interviewer have the courage to question the NAACP.  Ed Bradley was a wonderful person who made people of all races be accountable when they were obviously in the wrong.  Our society should be able to do many things that it does not do.  One cannot expect or demand that society forgive Vick and allow him to continue to make millions.  He is a person like all of the rest of us.  If a person with a regular job did something like this, their employer may or may not terminate their position based upon what the company guidelines were.

In closing, it is a small person who tortures and kills these dogs who are weaker than we are.  I wonder how these people who claim to be so cool would fair against one of the dogs they trained or how they would like it if the dog attacked and killed their child or loved one.  These people are cowards and they could never survive a fight with a pitbull without their instruments of torture.  What small, pathetic human beings.

Since I do not trust these thugs to not engage in other forms of retaliation against anyone who speaks out against their practice, I am not going to include my last name.

Rebekah, Valdosta, GA (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 9:49 AM)

Matt Lauer disgusted me this morning on this segment. He attacked PETA for convicting Vick in the public eye before he went to trial. Hello, doesn't the Today show do that every morning when they do segments discussing rapists, murders, kidnappers etc??!! Yes they do, Matt was such a hypocrite.

Also it was so completely ignorant to even try to relate dog fighting to deer hunting (and NOT just because one is legal and the other isn't). You are talking about wild animals vs domesticated ones. Dogs count on people to care for them, feed them, give them shelter, and love. Not throw them into a ring to fight for their lives and then kill them went they don't perform!!

Michael Vick is a sick individual who deserves to rot in jail. It's people like him, "role models", that continue to breed the idea that such inhumane treatment of animals is ok. He should be banned for life from the NFL!!

Polly Anderson, Chicago, Illinois (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 9:59 AM)

Future segments on animal cruelty need to address not only how humans treat animals but also how humans treat each other. If in this country we have subcultures which inflict violence on or exploit helpless victims then we have a problem. If energy is being expended to help people or communities better themselves then everyone thrives. But if cultures are gaining credibility for inflicting violence on the innocent or powerless then our society has more to worry about than the Taliban.

Holly, Rapid City, SD (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 10:23 AM)

I was completely horrified by Matt Lauer's interview on the Michael Vick case this morning. To attack the PETA representative for protesting without due process was outrageous...especially when Vick has made it clear that he plans to plead guilty. Dog fighting is completely reprehensible and any opportunity for PETA or other concerned citizens to express their outrage in a public forum is okay by me. I agree with others that comparing deer hunting and dog fighting was ridiculous and I think Matt Lauer owes Peyton Manning an apology for bringing his name up in this revolting segment.

K Peterson, Richmond VA (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 10:39 AM)

I am sooo sick of the Deer hunting/ Dog fighting comparisions.  Apart from the food aspect which someone else pointed out above, the other KEY distinction is the aspect of intentional cruelty.  The majority of hunters seek to kill their prey as quickly and humanely as possible.  In contrast, these dogs were bred to have incredible stamina and ability to withstand absolutely excruciating levels of pain.  Those dogs that do not die in the ring often die days later from bleeding out usually with their ears, jaws and sometimes genitals ripped of.  A law school classmate of mine investigates these schenes  He indicates that the sheer lack of humanity he has seen is far far worse than the majority of murder cases he ever investigated as a former DA.  In his words, the things he has seen will “haunt him in his dreams – forever”.

Jason Gibson - Washington D.C. (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 10:42 AM)

MICHAEL VICK IS JUST LIKE ANYONE ELSE,HE HAS COMITTED A FELONY AND SHOULD GO DIRECTLY TO JAIL; NO MATTER WHAT COLOR OR WHO HE IS.  MICHEAL VICK SHOULD NOT BE ABOVE THE LAW AND SHOULD NEVER BE ABLE TO PLAY FOOTBALL OR INDORSE ANY PRODUCTS.  MICHAEL VICK IS JUST A TOTAL LOOSER AND NOW EVERYONE CAN SEE THAT HE IS JUST A HYPOERITE AND SCHEMER. GO TO JAIL WHERE YOU BELONG MICHEAL VICK !!!!!!!!!!!! AND GO AWAY NAACP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LINDA , KNOX, INDINA (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 11:05 AM)

I can't believe anyone would compare dog fighting and the actions that go along with that to deer hunting! There are reasons why one is legal and one isn't. Torture for instance. Most normal human beings are against torture and most humans who can't see the difference may not see a difference in torturing other humans as well. Where is the "humanity" in these humans? I was disappointed in Matt for not understanding why people were out there protesting, it really didn't matter who was in trouble for dog fighting. PETA lady explained more than once it was about what they were against not just one cruel man, but a whole group of people who think of animals as property not having any rights for humane treatment as such. I am so mad and upset with the callusness of the people on your show today. I usually think peta is over the top, but today she was the only one who made sense. I was also relieved that the speaker for the NAACP did not endorse dog fighting but stuck with his issue, which I don't agree with but at least he didn't endorse such a cave man idea such as dog fighting. They all sound like a bunch of animals themselves. Also Michael Vick will probably just get a slap on the wrist so how is that justice? How is that paying back a debt to society? Money, sports and celebrity always get special treatment, he doesn't need the NAACP. They shouldn't be wasting their time and resources on him he didn't on them instead he chose to use his resources and time on cruelty and abuse of animals that are dumb enough to be man's best friend. If it is about getting to torture only dumb animals then we could torture several people as well.

Charlene Braden (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 11:20 AM)

Micheal Vick was looked up to by many fans and kids. I would like to say that I am shocked that there are people who want Vick to go unpunished or viewed as innocent despite his guilty plea but I'm not. We seem to live in a society where sports heroes and movie stars are allowed to break laws with little fear of punishment. Also if one of them just happens to get caught... they have orginizations or fan base that cry out for leniency or claim that some sort of -ism is going on. We let money talk... we pay,seek autographs and pictures,  we continue to 'worship', adore, and look up to those that act as if they are above the law. We let them know they can do anything they want... including torture another living human or animal by paying money to see them or watch them.

Kids already have a hard enough time dealing with negative peer pressure... they don't need to be told it's ok to look up to these stars that act out, that break the law, that harms others. They really need to be told this is not worthy behavior of a role model.

Futher more, most hunters do not beat up animals regulary, electrocute, hang, stab to death, strangle, or torture an animal like dog fighters do. Allowing an animal to suffer to long goes against most hunter's creed. Matter of fact hunters are more humane than most slaughter houses.

Mary, Knoxville, TN (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 11:25 AM)

To quote a very appropriate movie, New Jack City.. "This isn't a black thing, It isn't a white thing, it is a death thing.   And death don't give a S%*t about color."  This is a dog thing and guess what, dogs don't see color.  They respond to action.  Kindness or cruelty.  It was Mr. Vicks decision to use his celebrity/fame/fortune to pursue something so horrible to make more money!!??  I'm so sick of the race card being played.  I'm 35 and my generation is over it.  I see successful black people in all walks of life.  Lets judge Mr. Vick on what he did and that alone speaks volumes.

Laura Bismarck, ND (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 11:33 AM)

Michael Vick is a piece of trash regardless of the color of his skin.  Dog fighting is a ruthless practice that only ignorant Red-necks and Ghetto street punks engage in and/or support.  Michael Vick tortured and murdured innocent dogs because he is a blood thirsty killer.  People like this are souless and are full of hate. Do you honestly think it will stop there?  No way!  Let's not forget about how Jeffry Dalmer got his start--he was a dog killer too.

Shame on you Matt Lauer for trying to make a racial issue out of this by even talking to the NAACP about it!  Shame on you again for questioning PETA's ethics for protesting Michael Vick.  IF YOU ARE INDICTED BY A GRAND JURY IT'S BECAUSE THE EVIDENCE AGAINST YOU IS OVERWHELMING!!!!!!  You don't need a guilty plea or conviction to actually be guilty of a crime.  There are plenty of "innocent" people in jail too.  Give me a break.

I think that the NFL should ban Michael Vick from ever playing football again.  I think all football fans should step in and protest and tell the NFL that they will boycott football if they let Michael Vick back in!  GROW A BACK BONE AMERICA!

Marcy, Charleston, South Carolina (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 11:44 AM)

I'm sick of people(NAACP) playing the raciest card.You cann't compare deer hunting and this unhuman act from micheal vick to be the same or even related to one another. Vick should go to prison and he should never be allowed to play football again. As far as i'm consered who every agrees with dog fighting can go to prison with him! This is not someone that i want my boys to see as a role model.I watch the today show every morning before work, and I have to so that Matt really disappointed me today for attacking the PETA. I would like to know if Matt would feel this way if one of these trained dogs got a hold of someone he loves. When are these so called celebrities ever going to be punished just like  regular people. Micheal Vick is a cruel person! You don't deserve any of your wealth, career,or freedom!  

Jennifer, Winamac, Indiana (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 11:46 AM)

I am truly disgusted that we still try to use color as a defense mechanism to try to say someone is not getting a fair sentence. I applaud Ingrid for standing up and saying no matter what color you are you commited the crime now do the time. To compare this to deer hunting is totally insane. You eat the deer after you kill it humanly. Don't tell me you eat the dog after it has been brutally killed.  

Angie Denney, Twin Falls, ID (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 11:51 AM)

I HAVE WATCHED THE TODAY SHOW FOR MANY MANY YEARS AFTER TO DAY SHOW WITH YOUR MATT LAUER I WILL WATCH CBS FOR MY NEWS FROM TODAY FORWARD. I HAVE BEEN UPSET FOR SOME TIME WITH THE TODAY SHOW MATT, AL , WHATS HER NAME (MV)ALL THEY DO IS LAUGH AND CARRY ON WITH STUPID JOKES BETWEEN THEMSELVES; I DO NOT KNOW WHERE THE NEWS HAS GONE? TODAYS ATTACH ON THE PETA AND HIS COMPARISON TO DEER HUNTING IS JUST DUMB AND I GUESS THAT IS WHAT MATT THINKS OF HIS  WATCHING AUDIENCE. WELL HE IS  DEAD WRONG. WE ARE SMART ENOUGH TO CHANGE TO CBS FOR OUR NEWS. THIS IS NOT THE FIRAT TIME MATT HAS ATTACKED HIS GUEST OPPINIONS BUT IT WILL BE THE LAST FOR MY FAMILY.  STAND UP NBC AND FIRE MATT LAUER IT IS WAY OVER DUE!!!!!!!!!!!

LOU BELORK, KNOX INDIANA (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 12:33 PM)

IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOUR WHITE OR BLACK. WHY IS IT IF A BLACK PERSON DOES SOMETHING WRONG THEN WE HAVE THE NAACP,AL SHARPTON,OR JESSIE JACKSON COMING TO THEIR DEFENCE. MICHEAL VICK IS NOTHING BUT A LOSER,WHO DOES NOT DESERVE HIS WEALTH,CAREER,OR FREEDOM! THIS THING ABOUT "IT'S NO DIFFEREENT THAN DEER HUNTING",WELL THAT'S JUST STUPID! DEER HUNTING IS NOTHING LIKE THIS HORRIFIC DOG FIGHTING. IF THE NFL ALLOWES MICHEAL VICK TO RETURN AT ANY POINT AND TIME IS JUST AS GUILTY HAS VICK!

JENNIFER, WINAMAC, INDIANA (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 12:40 PM)

We saw 2 discussions of the Michael Vick atrocity on NBC this morning. One was between the announcers on Today In New York with Rob Morrison, Darlene Rodriguez, and Otis Livingston. The other was on the Today Show when Matt Lauer interviewed representatives of PETA and the NAACP.
I extend my admiration to Rob, Darlene and Otis as they actually focused on the problem of dog fighting rather than whether Vick will play again. Or, as Matt Laurer REPEATEDLY questioned, whether animal advocates "jumped the gun" by condemning the act of torturing animals to death.
Research shows a glaring relationship between animal abuse and human abuse. The evidence is prolific. In the words of Charlotte Lacroix at Purdue University Press: "If the US is to rid society of family violence, then violent acts against animals is conduct that cannot be tolerated. In fact, such conduct merits judicial attention and community resources equal to that devoted to acts of violence toward humans. An aggressive, national response to abusive treatments to animals, is not a distortion of priorities but rather a recognition that the solution to a violent society does not lie in the recognition of the victims but in the characterization of the offenders."

Georgette Madak, Bridgewater NJ (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 12:50 PM)

Although I am white, I have good friends who are black, so my comments should be taken in that context. I think anyone, no matter what race, would be seen as a criminal by our citizens, for participating in the dog fighting business and abusing dogs or any other animal. I don't think Michael Vick should be allowed the priviledge of being a celebrity any longer. I think he should be in jail for as long as the courts can possibly manage so that he can learn what it is like to be made "uncomfortable". I only wish people would be as vocal about the murder and torture of pre-born human beings and all human beings as they are about dogs.

Linda Doe, Baltimore, Maryland (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 1:00 PM)

I am a huge fan of Matt Lauer and the Today Show but I was so disgusted by his interview on Micheal Vick this morning that I felt compelled to write.  Matt was so incredibly wrong for attacking the PETA representative about protesting Michael Vick.  There are pages and pages of evidence he was involved in completely digusting and inhumane treatment of animals and as US citizens it is our right to protest this type of violent behavior regardless if they have been convicted or not.  While PETA can be extreme in their beliefs, they did nothing wrong in this situation.  Wake up people, it has been proven over and over again that people who abuse and torture animals are capable of treating people the same way...it's about power.  These poor dogs are helpless and depend on humans to care for them, not torture and kill them in horrific ways.  How would Matt feel if Micahael Vick was violent towards or tortured a woman? Is it ok if we protest that before he's convicted?  It's not unlikely that type of behavior would be next by someone who is capable of this kind of violence.

Mindy, Hoboken, NJ (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 1:10 PM)

I wish people would recognize tht the outrage over Vick has to do with what he is accused of, not his race. There are many of us who adore dogs and can't ever imagine breeding, torturing, punishing and killing them for our own amusement. This case provided them with an excellent opportunity to shine a light on this horrible sport, and they would've jumped on the opportunity to protest it regardless of the accused's race. The NAACP however, is severely reducing their credibility by being publicly involved in this. If they want to ensure that Vick's legal rights are being honored behind the scenes, so be it. But they're spokesmen appear to be supporting Vick's actions and the arguements of fellow athletes. I can't imagine the NAACP wants to be associated with animal cruelty. Oh, and although I don't agree with hunting, I can CLEARLY see the difference between shooting a deer in the wild and raising a puppy for the express purpose of torturing and killing it. I can't understand how people can't see the difference.

Stephanie, Columbia, MO (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 1:32 PM)

First I would like to comment on the reality show issue and "Kid Nation".  It is just plain exploitation and when society realizes that their own life itself is just as/if not more exciting and interesting than living vicariously through the exploitation of others successes or mistakes.  Hopefully morality and self worth will come full circle and network TV along with society at large will wake up.  The reality of the situation is that childhood relationships and struggles are no different than the broader issues that adults deal with, we are all merely the result of our childhood experiences and struggles to find where we belong in society and how we can contribute.
    Now, with all emotion aside. Michael Vick's story.
     Facts - remove the emotions that are involved with the activity of fighting dogs.  The actual activity was illegal, plain and simple. Was or has his wholes story been publicly over-mediated? - YES !
  Yet the sad truth behind all of this lies again in the society of exploitation. I blame the colleges and their philanthropist alumni who want the sports championship, pro-sports owners who want to fill those stadiums and the associations that regulate it all, they are all exploiters only feeding the demands of a society who cannot seem to be satiated.
   Here was a financially strapped youth growing up with a dream of making it big.  He obviously has a talent for playing football, it helped him out of the low income housing, into college ( which he only USED as a stepping stone spotlight to the Pro Ball, it would be interesting to see a transcript from his classes).  It was all too much for a simple minded individual with probably minimal family influence as to what is RIGHT or WRONG.   I think that the ball club owners and the associations that regulate all of this should take a look at all of their players activities and all should be held accountable for all illegal infractions, especially if society is going to raise them to the "role model" level. Politicians should take note as well. America lets expect high standards.  Michael Vick's situation is no different from many other high profile individuals who mis-use their power and sudden wealth.
  Is he guilty - YES.  
  Was he taken advantage of by his family or friends ( as his grandfather stated publicly in a local interview ) - probably but he also had a choice that he did not have the intelligence or personal values to say "No, this is not right! "
   Should he be allowed to return to play - I don't think so, once a thug, always a thug.
    The shame in all of this is the fact that there are probably many other deserving individuals coming from the same type of situations that could use a fine college career that could eventually use their special talents to improve even the simplest of aspects of our world instead of taking it all for granted or thinking they have a sense of entitlement or allowing the flesh peddlers to exploit them.  
All of this coming from a transplant recipient who is so grateful for every minute that has been graciously given by the donation of the most unselfish grief stricken family.

Julie, Chesapeake, VA (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 1:44 PM)

If you wonder about the differences between deer hunting and dogfighting, I suggest you first go on a deer hunt and then attend a dog fight.  I think the differences will be obvious.  The violence and cruelty level in fighting is, generally, much higher than it is in hunting.

With that said, having grown up in a rural area where "hunt clubs" were common.  I think the similarity between hunters and dog fighters is that most hunters and all dog fighters find a sick pleasure, shall I say sadistic pleasure, in the act of killing.  So as far as "moral differences", well frankly, I don't see a whole lot.

Jackie (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 1:47 PM)

Anyone questioning the distinction between Vick’s dogfighting and treatment of other animals should read this http://www.animallaw.info/articles/ddusdogfighting.htm#_edn2  This is not some PETA propaganda this is part of a scholarly article that was submitted to Congress when they passed the Animal Fighting Prohibition Enforcement Act.  For those who wont look at it, at least read this passage:

“In the world of urban dogfighting, where an individual’s fighting dog is an extension of his or her own identity, defeat in a fight is unacceptable.[50] A dog that loses a fight also loses a lot of money and compromises the reputation of his owner. The end result, if the losing dog survives the fight, is immediate death if he is lucky, or torture and mutilation if the owner is embarrassed or irate.[51] For many, this ritual is a way to regain the respect of their peers. There is no reverence for life or concern for the animals. The abuses that the dogs endure - both in and out of the ring - is so gruesome that even seasoned investigators are consistently shocked by the barbarities they discover at raids. In commenting on a recent raid in South Carolina (2004), First Circuit assistant solicitor, Richard Lackey said, “It’s a gruesome scene...I’ve never seen anything like this before.” Newton County Sheriff, Joe Nichols described a 2004 raid in Georgia as, “one of the most horrible things I have experienced.”

This thing goes on and on.  A few months ago, I didn’t know much about dog fighting.  The more I read, the more appalled I get.  If nothing else, please please PLEASE never make a comparison between dogfighitng and care of other animals again.

Arvin Thayer, Arlington, VA (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 2:12 PM)

I suggest that Matt Lauer remember that US citizens have the right to voice their ideas - in this case a demand for an indictment. Americans are not obligated to be silent puppets, waiting breathlessly for the legal system to tell them what to think. What on earth was Matt thinking???

Gail, North Central New Jersey (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 2:12 PM)

The morality of any organization should be questioned if they give dogfighting participants a job back. Why have we not heard more from the NAACP and the NFL on the issue of animal cruelty? I want some public figures to speak out about this. Where is Al Sharptons public outcry? Is HE a dog lover. He was so vocal about Imus. Why the silence????

Liz Wilkes OKC,OK (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 2:19 PM)

Anyone who could put two dogs, or any other living creature in a ring--and make them fight to their death---for Sport or for any other reason, should be considered dangerous and mentally ill.  It matters not if if they are a football player,  Rock Star or any other celebrity.  

g.eglesias'nepa (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 2:34 PM)

I think we need to delve in deeper to Mr Vicks, and any of his dog fighting associates, history.  It is my understanding that people who are cruel to animals are usually cruel, period. (isn't that how serial killers usually start out?)

Wondering, Florida (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 2:35 PM)

Let me understand... we want to allow someone who thinks "sport" is watching two animals fight to the death and then abuses and kills the loser, back on the football field?

Right.


donna, phoenix, az (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 2:41 PM)

Just because someone pays their "debt to society" by going to prison does not mean that there are still not consequences for actions. To let Vick play ball again would be such a bad, sad example for our children today. More than prison, Vick needs pschyological help!

Diane S., Helena, MT (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 2:48 PM)

I am a dog lover so how I feel about the dog fighting is obvious.  I think that the Humane Society of America and Peta should use Michael Vicks celebrity and money to their advantage.  For his plea bargain he should get to continue to play football, donating a percentage of all of his endorsements, paychecks etc. directly to these organizations to enable them to build no kill facilities in every state.  He should also become a spokesperson for pet adoption and do many hours of community service in the dog shelters.

Kid nation is stupid.  Now we will have unruly rug rats running around thinking even more so that they can make decisions on their own and mom and dad know squat.  If you allow your kid to watch this ridiculous show, at least inform them that adults are filming this and they are not actually surviving on their own.  Please use some common sense.  The people who thought this up obviously did not.

Marsha, Washougal, Wash. (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 3:02 PM)

I was really disturbed to hear Stephon Marbury's comment comparing deer hunting to dog fighting.  Not that I am a hunter, but I understand that thanks to humans eliminating deer's natural predators from where we live...wolves, coyote, etc., they are no longer kept in balance with nature.  Therefore, in some parts of this country, they are in such abundance that through organized and legitimate means they are culled by hunters and hopefully used for food for people who need it.  Dogs, a domesticated animal that pretty much know nothing more than being man's best friend, being breed to kill and be tortured...where is the comparison?  These people are sick and not in touch with reality.  Why do we pay them millions, to influence our children and create a culture that allows this discourse?

Carson Glover, New York, NY (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 3:05 PM)

Liz Wilkes - to Sharpton's credit, he came out nearly a month ago and issued a joint statement with Russel Simmons and PETA - Dogfighting is wrong.  Give him credit for sticking to his guns and not backtracking on this statement.  

Steve Jackson, Olympia, WA (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 3:05 PM)

I love how everyone is obsessed with Michael Vick and dog fighting... Seriously People.  The next time an athlete commits a crime involving drugs or rape I only hope we can be as outraged.  We let our athletes and etertainers be our role models yet we pick and choose when we want to decry their actions.  Do I think Michael Vick was wrong?  Absolutely.  Do I think he should serve time in jail and never be allowed to play football?  No.  He can serve time in jail and not play football when the we hold all the other athletes and entertainers to the exact same standards.  Nobody talks about never going to see another Lindsey Lohan movie even though she has driven drunk and does heavy drugs.  People still eat at Ray Lewis' bbq restaurant in Baltimore even though he has been in trouble with the law.

Isabelle, Baltimore, MD (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 4:42 PM)

Regarding the NAACP's position that Michael Vick should be able to resume his NFL career, once he "pays his debt to society", if I were convicted of a crime my career would be over.  I would be automatically fired.  Why should he be able to pick up his career as if nothing happened? Vick should have to work at an animal shelter and take care of abused animals.  And yes I would be as outraged if he had murdered or abused a human being.
Regarding Matt Lauer's attack of the represenative from PETA, First it is our right to protest. Also the media did a pretty good hatchet job on the young men from Duke University before indictments were handed down, and with a lot less evidence!  PETA was only protesting.

Barb Oregon, Ohio (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 5:04 PM)

Is there some reason why everyone from Indiana who posts here FEELS THE NEED TO SHOUT ALL THE TIME?

"Would someone who is not a professional athlete lose their job for something like this?"

Uh, YEAH! As for what's "legally feasible", that's dependent on league rules and Vick's contract, isn't it? More than likely the NFL has it covered; but,  don't be surprised if Vick sues, either to be reinstated or for lost compensation. As for being forgiven by society, I can tell you that I, for one, will never forgive him . . . EVER.


As for Dan Fleschman's self-determined "fair question": "Is an apple an orange? Is an orange an apple?" . . . I think I just answered it.  

kingsXrulz, San Diego, CA (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 5:46 PM)

Justification of murder and mutilation is in no way acceptable for any human being. Dogs are our heroes, our best friends, a child's confidant, a healer to the elderly, a rescuer to the lost.

A football player, teacher, police officer, parent, all of us as humans should be held accountable.

Shame on anyone who is guilty of such a crime. Give back the lives of those that were maimed and killed, all for the love of a blood curdling sport.  Then talk to me about getting your name and your job back.

Rowena, Vancouver, WA (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 6:30 PM)

I do not know why exactly, but I was just as angered by Matt Lauer interviewing these people, as I am disgusted with giving air time to anyone with a mouth. It is our humanity in question, and what we do with it when it is trashed. The NFL, NBC, and anyone else who has the opportunity should stand for the humanity we lose when we debate the clear and proven person or group that degrades mankind.

Jill (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 6:55 PM)

Kidz nation...lets get real...there is a real kidz nation in AFRICA...haven't you heard...haven't you seen them...their the ones whose parents have died of AIDS...they know how to live without all of what these kidz have on this show...food...and equipment with animals...some place to stay...yet the children in AFRICA...have nothing...scraping through garbage...the reality show...lets get real...what a joke...why didn't you go to the real kidz...and give them what you gave these and for sure they would build something great...but they have nothing...go do the real...reality show...where there are real children living a real reality life...for real...

Karen, Newington, CT (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 8:08 PM)

First, the NAACP is NOT playing the race card--which they have repeatedly stated.

Second, I'm tired of people thinking these celebrities are role models. No, YOU as a parent, should be a role model to your child. You shouldn't put that responsibility on a celebrity or athlete and then use it as a cop out when your kid picks up bad habits.

Third, Matt was just pointing out that even though we have freedom of speech and protest, everyone is innocent until proven guilty. PETA jumped the gun and they were out protesting before due process! And Matt was not comparing Vick to Manning.  He just asked IF this happened to someone like a Peyton Manning, would PETA have the same reaction?  Why can't people just forgive Vick once he pays his debts?  He makes a bad choice and we're ready to end his life.  But Bush and the rest of the crooked politicians can make several bad choices that impact America nationally and globally and he can remain president? Hmmmm...

I don't even know why this story is all over the news.  How about the Today Show do a report on the Jena 6 instead of Michael Vick! The media in general is a joke.  People are too dumb to see that most of the TV networks, newspapers, and other publications are owned by one person--who can determine what is 'news' and HOW it's printed or aired.  No one is "up in arms" about that huh? It's just another example of American's not receiving the real news.

Some of the comments above are UNBELIEVABLE!  I wish people were this angry and passionate about the war and Bush.  But I guess no one can see how he's murdering thousands in Iraq.  The only thing that will stop that is a draft. We value animals, embryos, and other ridiculous things over human life.  We're ready to fight tooth and nail over some DOGS?!  I'm not saying dog fighting is right, because it isn't, but puh-leeeze people. Let's get our priorities straight.     We should be spending more time on real issues instead of crucifying Vick. I guess that's the American way...just backwards!

Kaye, New York, NY (Sent Thursday, August 23, 2007 10:05 PM)

I heard the comment about comparing dog fighting to hunting.  I dont think we should be out there killing deer either, except in cases of true survival, not for sport.  I am not a big human boxer fan either.  If humans want to voluntarily get in a ring and beat the crap out of each other, so be it, but leave the animals alone.  
Like the producer mentioned as far as the kid show goes, part of me is "where are these parents?" but really, but this is probably no worse than the other shows that have young children on a set all day ---just not a good, healthy environment for children.

Jana Adams, Sacramento, CA (Sent Friday, August 24, 2007 12:48 AM)

His plea is to exclude taking part in the 8 dogs execution,well,what about the 50 dogs they took from Vicks residence that have a date with death if not adopted by Thursday? They will no doubt be put down by court order. Mike trained them to fight and to be unadoptable so the way I look at it is he has killed 50 dogs all for the sake of gambling. That is sick.

JCrosby Dunnellon,Fl (Sent Friday, August 24, 2007 2:56 AM)

I watched the bit with the NAACP and PETA.  I do not understand how anyone can assume that this is a racial issue.  If no mercy is shown to Michael Vick for his part in showing no mercy to animals that cannot defend themselves, then so be it.  I just saw a bit that today is the anniversary of Pete Rose being banned from baseball.  When that occurred, there wasn't anyone crying foul that it happened to him because he was white.  The Michael Vick situation is one of decency and humane treatment of all animals, not a racially biased issue.  I often watch the animal precint shows on the Animal Planet and it has never occurred to me to divide the offenders of inhumane treatment by race. Shame on anyone for even suggesting such and clouding the issue that is really at hand.  This should be the perfect opportunity to shed light on a horrific blood sport rather than making it a racial issue.

We are sickened in this country when we hear of bullfighting and it is not legal because of the inhumanity.  It is time that we understand that people who treat animals with this type of uncaring and lack of feeling will also treat humans in the same horrific way if the situation presents itself.  

I am also not a supporter of PETA as I believe that they are also fanatical in their viewpoints.  However, I would rather deal with someone who would prefer to never kill any animals than the person who gets some sick enjoyment from seeing animals, due to no choice of their own, fight to the death.  Is this the dark ages where we think it is acceptable to put others in a ring and watch them kill one another.  

Let's hope that this is a venue for bringing an end to this sport.

Patricia Shaub (Sent Friday, August 24, 2007 9:22 AM)

People are outraged at Vick because he repeatedly and with no remorse engaged in vicious cruelty,not the one shot killing to consume meat.Vick is a monster,he did not commit a "mistake",a mistake is when you do something unintentionally.He is a sick person that should never be allowed to play again for his inhuman actions.

Joe F (Sent Friday, August 24, 2007 11:42 AM)

Michael Vick comitted first degree MURDER on 8 dogs. The only proper sentance is the death penalty!!!

Larry Wasserman, Santa Ana, CA. (Sent Friday, August 24, 2007 12:07 PM)

OMG - To Arvin who posted yesterday - I just read the link you provided http://www.animallaw.info/articles/ddusdogfighting.htm#_edn2  the concept of "Bait Dogs" is so horrifying.  I was so sickened actually I threw up!

Vick aside, I had NO idea humans were still capable of this sort of behavior in 21st centry america.  In alot of ways I wish I remained ignorant, but thank you for really opening my eyes to this issue.

Debbie Hall, Jackson, WY (Sent Friday, August 24, 2007 12:24 PM)

Since when are people entitled to fairness in the court of public opinion? You are not entitled, you are subject to it.

Eric, Waynesboro, Virginia (Sent Friday, August 24, 2007 12:57 PM)

I live in Minneapolis and last week a 7 year old was mauled to death by his father's pitbull. The family was breeding the dogs for fighting. Yesterday another child was attacked by a pitbull here. The only good thing about the Vick scandal is that maybe the police will crackdown on dog fighting rings in our country and we will have fewer attacks. Less demand for fights = fewer people training the dogs to kill = fewer attacks/deaths. Hopefully.  

Beth, Minneapolis, MN (Sent Friday, August 24, 2007 1:18 PM)

This is NOT A RACE ISSUE! I was and always will be a civil rights worker for all human beings, and the same goes for animal rights. Every living thing on this earth deserves the same equality of condition, that is the right to exist without slavery in any form. Those innocent creatures were made slaves of a horrible practice by horrible people. Horrible people come in all colors, nationalities, religions and genders...We need to understand this as decent human beings...it just so happened that Vick and the people involved are African-Americans. What is even more heinous is that Vick had a God given opportunity to become a magnificent human being...and instead he chose to become a closet devil.  I am glad he has been "outed."  There are people who want to label this a "Black," thing...but it is not.  Some of the most modern notorious "pit bull" rings have come out of white Florida.  I hope we are on a role here.  Let's expose them all..and the cockfighters and other depraved human beings who have lost their humanity and humaneness.  Traditions can be respected, but not carried on - such us bull fighting, and running of the bulls, rodeos and cruel entertainment use of animals.  To the guest that brought up the cliche that Americans care more about animals than children.  This only showed your willingness to continue ignorance.  If you love your children, you want to teach them respect for all life.  Albert Schweitzer said two things that are timeless: until humanity extends its circle of compassion to all creatures, it will never find peace itself; and, it is an honorable thing to relieve at least a little misery where we can.  Thank God their are watch dogs in the animal rights community that aren't afraid of new show hosts that want to skirt the real issues.  Domestic violence and all other violence by realation, usually is connected to some animal cruelty as well. Most legislators and intelligent, compassionate and courageous people know this and are fighting for laws that address this.  Gandhi said that a country should be measured by how it treats its animals...and I would add, by how it respects the rights of its animals.  Look aroumd us...into the slaughter houses, laboratories, circuses, the western plains, pet shops and exotic animal trade...look around and you will see accompanying suffering of children, who have been slaughtered, starved, butchered, exploited and generally abandoned.  It is all connected.  Wake up, and do it soon.    

C. G. Varno, Syracuse, New York (Sent Saturday, August 25, 2007 11:36 AM)



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