I disagree with Clarian Health Partners,  "fines system" of people that work for them due to their Health issues.  
People get all kinds of illnesses/diseases and they are not acquired by their lifestyle. (majority of them)
EXAMPLES: Non smokers get lung cancer ( everyone has environmental exposures, you can't blame smoking cigarettes ).  Diabetes is a genetic disease. Obesity can be genetic or caused by something gone wrong in the endocrine glands of the person and they can't lose the weight. Usually the treatments/medications  only add to the weight.
This is clearly a violation of the  Medical Privacy of the people.  It's just another form of Discrimination to add the the already growing pile in this country.
Why does the government and private companies feel the need to govern our lives, especially once we leave the work place?  Is it not enough to have loyal employees any longer, but You(the company) must now treat them as "children", molding them into a "physical body" to suit Your (the company) bottom line?
A person can be the "picture" of physical health/habits and yet be eaten up within from a disease/illness they have no control over. Having done everything right in their life, yet they still get sick.  So...does the company then "fine" these people too, though they look the picture of health?

Sorry, I think not.  I think these Companies, with these attitudes are looking for Lawsuits to happen...then where is their bottom line getting them?

P.Evans

Blatant weight discrimination!  Hmmm, no penalty for being underweight?  I mean, it is supposed about health, right?  So what about someone that is anorexic?  Or why do smokers not get fined but they get a bonus for quitting?  You would think an incentive program would be the wiser choice.  Give the employees incentive to lose instead of a penalty for something that may be out of their control (genetics).  

By the way, was the representative for Clarian Healthcare a healthy weight?  He appeared to be overweight himself.  Could just be the camera, um, adding a few pounds.  Yeah, that's it.

We never cease to be amazed at how the obese are picked on, yet are 2/3 of the population.  No one wants to be obese or morbidly obese and hard workers should not be penalized or embarrassed by being singled out this way.  Everyone should be outraged by such dehumanizing and an invasion of something as personal as what the scale says.  

This is obsurd! The idea of being able to discriminate in this manner is sickening! What's next, if someone is gay they are going to be charged? What about people with children...where will it stop? Being a type 1 diabetic, I find this very insensitive. I can't believe they are able to get away with this!

I am sorry but after listening to this it irritates me even more the people fighting this. American need to take responsibility for their actions. If positive reinforcement is not being taken advantage of due to the lazyness that is sweeping the nation then they should have to pay or perhaps spend a considerable amount of time with those suffering from a similar affliction. We are teaching our kids that it is ok to be fat, smoke, generally be of bad health. It is time that american adults take responsibility for ALL of their actions and set a good example for our kids. Responsibility and accountability. Hard to do but it is ultimately what will make us better people and a stronger country.

So your logic states that if someone has a physical illness or disease you think they should pay more for health care than say someone like you who only right at this moment is healthy. Your logic is twisted to say the least. If someone needs health care, its not your right to say how much they pay. You do not get to decide who pays what nor do get to judge people when you have no idea about their personal situation. Do you think that senior citizens shoud pay more for heath care? Thats just what will happen if anyone starts listen to your point of view. Let people who need health care GET health care and not judgement by ignorant people who can only see as far as their own wallet. Obese have rights, just as many as you.

I just watched the segment about Clarian Health and I was absolutly appalled. I am not a smoker nor do I have weight or blood pressure problems but if I did that would be my problem. For Clarian Health to tell their employees that they can either shape up or pay up seems to me like a violation of their rights. I know that this country has the highest rate of obesity but putting a price tag on your weight loss is not a way to motivate employees. In my opinion if I were an employee of Clarian Health I would have a new job by 2009 fat or not fat...smoker or no smoker. If we as Americans start letting the big name corporations tell us how we can and can't live then I think we have lost the battle to control our own destiny.

Can they legally get away with this?

One additional comment.  This same hospital group promotes gastric bypass surgery at their facilities.  Making money on the employees and patients both.  Isn't that special?  So they're understanding when you're a patient, but not so much when an employee.  My oh my, the double standards seem to be quite common at Clarian, don't they?

I am steaming over this story of Ccaliria. It fails to tell us how much are the emplouees paying for their health care now. I know from my own working experiance their are very few companies that pay 100% of health ins for their employees. What is the average income of their employees? I would bet unter 30,000. How many of their employees are raising a family and may be singel parents? It is proven that familys of lower income eat fatter foods to strech their budget. In my opion this is just another way for the employer to cut their cost an make their profits higher. Why not cut the upper management and make them pay for their ins 100% and cut the big perks for the upper management of their big bounus, their cars, free parking etc. All the extra cost are past down to the lower and middel class employees. I have been working for over 35 years and have seen nothing but my income go down instead of going up. We get a 1-3% raise only to have insurance go up 6%. I also feel again the larger size person is being discrimated again. How come employers exclude from their ins benifits anythig that has to do with weight loss programs, bypass surgery, etc. NO they would rather not pay for preventive med and let people get sick from the real problems and then make them pay for not taking care of their eating disorder.
I am so angrey over this report. What will come next? The middel income family is strugeling now. That $750 could make a big diffrence in their monthly budget. Where upper managementit is spending money.
Thank for you time
Sharon,
St. Louis, Mo

It's a hot, nasty little change in policy to "fine"
employees' Health Plan at Clarion Health Hosptials when their CEO drives up to the canopy in a limo and builds a multi-million dollar Monorail between his two hospitals that are only one mile away from each other in downtown Indianapolis as a "perk". I bet a dollar to a donut that was not in your coverage this morning.  These facts may turn popular wisdom (that of accountability) on its head. Sure, we are what we do (and eat), but most people would feel comforatble saying that those in administration row (popularily known as mahognany lane) have a most peculiar sense of fiscal accountability. I think it's fair to say they could have just as easily REWARDED employees with lower rates for one year (up to a $780 savings) instead of higher rates.  Gee! Who'd of thunk of that?

The bigger question is: Why do we believe it is the responsibility of businesses to take care of employee health needs? At one time in our country's history, it was relatively easy and low cost for an employer to do this. But today, health insurance costs have risen to the point that they are negatively impacting many companies' survival, particularly small businesses. In many cases, businesses that cannot provide health insurance cannot find good employees, or those that can provide health insurance are shifting more and more of the costs onto the employees. American companies should exist to provide a product or service, not exist to provide health care and other social services. It is time for the government to remove this burden from our business community and assume its social responsibility by providing universal health care for ALL citizens. Sure, there will be a price to bear--but hopefully we can disperse the burden among all citizens, rather than lay it solely on the backs of our businesses. And along the way, perhaps do something about controlling skyrocketing health care costs.

This is blatantly wrong....what about those who gain weight due to certain medical issues as in cushins disease, polycystic ovarian syndrome..many health issues that are underlying can cause a person to gain weight .  I was very physically fit and then overnight no matter what healthy diet i followed and no matter how hard i exercised i continued to gain weight only to find out i had PCOS, and an endocrine issue...What right do you have to do this to your employees....you may be getting rid of some of your best employees by discriminating against them.

Some 6 years ago, my wife's employer started charging their employees $4.50 per pay check for smokers insurance.  If the employee didn't smoke, yet their spouse did, they were still accessed the cost, even if the spouse wasn't on the health insurance coverage plan. It now costs $10.00 per pay check, and I the spouse, am still not covered under my wife's insurance program. I have my own health insurance coverage. Employers are getting too private, if you don't like it, they tell you to drop your health coverage entirely, or leave the employment.

Let's get it together here. Health Insurance is a privilege that companies do NOT have to offer. Employees should be thankful they have coverage. Instead of penalizing individuals, the companies could always put a cap on the dollar amount they will cover per individual/family. Anything above this amount could be co-paid by the employees. There are many jobs out there with no insurance at all or the employees pay a percentage. It is not the company's fault if their employees have any of the listed issues. Why should employers be penalized for -in many cases- choices their employees make regarding the care of their own physical being? We need to be responsible for our own well being.

yeah, that's it... take money away from the lower income workers in the hospitals who most likely have a lot of these issues... that'll ensure they get the help they need. i know for a fact that a lot of these administrative folks aren't exactly models of perfection with regard to health.

I think the idea has potential but there seems to be a lot of exceptions to be considered.  What if a person is active, walks a couple of miles a day, does not consume excessice amounts of high fat/calorie foods but is still over weight, and there has high blood pressure (which may also be attributed to family genetics)?  If this person is under a doctor's care and is making an effort to be as healthy as possible they should not be fined for being on the high side of some chart.  So fining this kind of person, me, would be very discouraging.  I think positive reinforcement is the better way to go because then a person will have the option to get all the help there is available to them.  And, if they truly can document their efforts there should be no penalty.  Who determines "over weight?"  Is it 40-50 lbs, or is it 100 or more lbs.?  

what next? To many moles, genetic diseases? Bad feet? give me a break! Instead of fixing the Health Care system they will fix us! Sound familiar? Wake up America!!!

Why is Alyssa P. from MN such a minority? She is not talking about the "minority" who are obese due to a "rare"  medical issue. Most people are in absolute denial. The USA is in this fix because we are into instant gratification. We all want what we want and want it now! I think the snowball is going downhill and it is getting bigger and there is no way to stop it.
Sad, sad, sad. Everyone wants an easy fix.

Look, this is no different than charging higher risk drivers more for their car insurance because their behaviors (speeding, car accidents, DUI's, lack of experience, etc) show through significant statistical research that they are a higher risk.

All of the examples you people are throwing out about statistically insignificant populations (hypochondriacs, people who *can't* lose weight no matter how hard they try because it's ALL the fault of genetics, not their poor choices, etc) are soundbites but they're not statistically significant.  The plain fact is that people who are significantly overweight and people who smoke are statistically much more expensive to insure than people who are not/do not.

You can cry big brother all you want, but as long as your/my employers are kicking in the majority (in most cases, not all) of the costs of your/my health coverage, they absolutely have a right to demand that we as employees mitigate as many of the PREVENTABLE risks as possible, just as your car insurance company has the right to demand that you drive safely, that you do all you can to protect your car from damage/theft/etc.

The fact that it's so hard for so many people to digest is evidence of the rampant victimization in this country.  It's always someone else's fault, there's always some "I can't control it!" excuse that justifies the bad behavior, blah blah blah.  If you want total control of your rights to smoke, overeat, never exercise, etc, fine - there's a simple solution.  Pay ALL of your health care costs and don't leave it to anyone else to pick up the tab for your irresponsible and preventable behaviors.  But as long as someone else (your employers, your coworkers) are shouldering some of that risk for you, expect to be held accountable for your actions in the form of increased premiums and a loss of personal freedom.

In response to the last post by Christina, I am one of those who works for a small company that doesn't offer health insurance. The same day this article appeared I received a rejection notice to my health insurance application to Aetna. Their reason for the rejection is because I take two medications to CONTROL my high blood pressure, which I've had since I was 18 and I'm now 49. I really thought that being conscientious and working with my Dr. to treat my condition was the responsible thing to do...apparently not. I am now a part of the 46+ million Americans who are uninsured. I can appreciate Clarian wanting to keep costs in check, but as stated by many, privacy issues abound with this proposal. What other information are they gathering that can be used against the employee down the road...DNA tests to determine other potential illnesses? I agree this crosses the line and that rewards work better than punishment...just ask your kids.

Truthfully? I am both obese and a diabetic. Yet I rarely have to visit a doctor for anything related to those issues. However, I have a hypochondriac friend (of normal weight) who regularly sees her physician and gets prescriptions for the disease du jour and yet another friend (of normal weight) who has breast cancer. My recent expenses were due to a kidney stone. The point of insurance is that it covers expenses so you don't go broke. And no, companies don't have to pay for the insurance and we have the choice not to work for those companies. Obviously, a healthy workforce is one that will be the most beneficial to a company which makes insurance valuable to employer and employee. Where will the line be drawn? What about the drug addict or alcoholic? Someone who chooses to have 5 children in 5 years?

enough is enough! Clarion is stomping on personnal rights. If allowed to continue this practice then they should be banned from Indiana and any other state. As far as how much health care costs, lets just say I know that an nonprofit hospital had to spend nearly 50 million dollars on its facility or staff in order to remain non-profit. And that is only one hospital. Why don't they open thier books for everyone to see? I bet they have MORE than enough money. So money cannot be thier true issue... It has to be control, Some non-smoking, health nazi is pulling the ultimate scam and to cover his or her intentions they are including diabetics and colesterol patients to boot. Why not, he or she probably doesn't have those issues so its safe for those illnesses to be included. Why don't they go non-profit and leave the employees to their own choices? Because then they would not get as hefty a paycheck!!!!

This is obsurd, you can't discriminate in this manner wake up to educating and helping your employees.

I am an RNY GB patient and know how it feels to be discrimated.

I will make sure not to purchase from Dell IBM Kelloggs and any of the other companies who do this to their employees.
I do not smoke but most likely I will die from a breathing problem. I worked in a building for 4 years w/ 80% of the air had Aspergillius fungus black mold, the kind that haunted and killed King Tutts tomb when opened. I have never smoked. If my employer had this policy I would be so stressed out that I would get sick just because of the thought of it all. Many of us have no control over what health problems we end up with. There are heraditary, genetics, and things that are beyond our control. Obesity is a problem but if you over eat due to stress how can you loose weight if you are stressed out about paying for no loosing weight and can or will you loose your job because of it??
I believe that us working people are discriminated against constantly. We are discriminated if we do not have a good job with a lot of money, don't have a credit card many things and places that you can't have or do, credit if you have lousy credit you can't work for certain companies or the Gov., lousy credit will up your car and house insurance, lousy credit you can't cash your payroll check at a bank can't cash it if you don't have an account if it is drawn on that bank you will have to have 2 IDs a drivers lic and a credit card or debit card, what if there is a great good reason that you got behind on your bills, loss of job, illnes/injury, death, divorce, ID theft, major things happen to put us behind and many things are beyond our control. This is just one more way of us being allowed to be discriminated again.
Will this health policy make some one that is underweight or with an eating disorder gain weight this is a health issue too????

Christina from Georgia...you are correct in saying that companies do not have to offer health insurance, but it is not a priviledge, it is a benefit to lure workers and to keep them. There already is a cap in place on insurance policies as to how much they will pay out to individuals and families. There are very few companies that pay the entire premium. Almost every worker who has health insurance through their employers pay a percentage of their premiums. We already have co-pays and deductibles. The problem is not the sick people in this country jacking up the premiums, but the hospitals and doctors who charge the ridiculous amounts of money for health care. Health care should be a given in this country...the richest in the world (or so we tout ourselves to be). To deny someone medical care because they can't afford it is inhumane. What's even more disgusting are these corporations that make multi-millions in profit each year bitching about the cost of health insurance. And you, Christine, are you so healthy that you can guarantee that you will never get sick? Because if you ever do, your words will come back to haunt you.

OK, if they want to penalize people for being overweight, because they may go to the Dr. more then how about the people that have three and four chidren and pay the same amount as I do but go to the doctor 3 times as much, and then get an extra tax deduction on there tax returns.

-- The idea behind group health insurance is that buying coverage in bulk (so to speak) gets everyone at the company lower rates; this is the same concept that allows warehouse stores to offer low, low prices. The so-called "healthy" employees who are allegedly  being "penalized" by the unhealthy habits of their co-workers are still paying less than they would for an individual policy outside the group (the same actuary tables are used regardless of whether it's a group or individual policy; making you pay for the average health of those around you is the way insurance companies have always operated).
-- I don't know if it's legal to charge disproportionate rates for coverage within a group (common sense might dictate that it is not) but, regardless, this is a  situation rife with potential problems: The upper management can choose to exempt themselves from the penalties, causing resentment; knowledge of the penalties and the reasons behind them can lead to animosity and "whistle-blowing" among employees who would usually be expected to work together as a team [a concept that might be all well and good if you're talking about the military, such as the "donut" scene -- and its aftermath -- in "Full Metal Jacket" (IF you discount the ultimate fate of the drill sergeant) but doesn't work as well out in the civilian world]; the determination of who is overweight as a result of poor eating habits and lack of exercise, compared to those who have genetic disorders or medical conditions that can't be wished away, is something that employers -- most of whom are NOT medical professionals -- are not qualified to make . . . their attempts to do so will inevitably lead to discrimination lawsuits.
-- OTOH, employers have every right to NOT hire smokers or overweight people in the first place (What did he just say? Can this possibly be true? . . . Yes it is), as long as they aren't stupid in the way they handle the process. Now, if they can't possibly fill each of the positions they need without including a potentially unhealthy person in the mix, that's a pretty good indicator that the average quality of health in America isn't as good as some like to believe (the US is in 42nd place among the countries of the world when it comes to life expectancy). Also, just as safe drivers pay for the actions of unsafe drivers, healthy workers on a group insurance plan pay for the actions of workers who take actions that are likely to damage their health. . . .
-- Which brings up a possibility: Insurance companies (NOT the employers; they have no right to look at your private medical records) could elect to reward  healthier employess with lower rates -- similar to the way auto insurers reward accident-free drivers; this might not seem fair to all, but it's a lot more fair than having your employer make a layman's judgment call as to how well you are taking care of yourself.
-- To the poster who wrote about "responsibility and accountability", it's telling that you omitted the word "personal" (personal responsibility, personal accountability), and instead talked about "[making] us better people and a stronger country." While it may seem obvious that a healthier nation will also be happier and more productive, let's not forget some  basic tenets of our republic: Life, Liberty and the Pursuit . . .; Of the People, By the People, For the people. . . . The obligation an American citizen owes the country is to pay taxes, obey all laws, and to serve if legally called upon to do so. Maintaining your health is an obligation to yourself and your family, not to The State. Of course there have been some countries throughout history that required a health standard to be maintained; and we label them
T-O-T-A-L-I-T-A-R-I-A-N. Even within a group health situation unhealthy people pay a higher price: more office-visit co-pays, more prescription co-pays, more days lost to illness (paid or not), lower quality of life . . . they don't need anyone -- not the gov't. and not their employer -- telling them that they need to be healthier. They know. Personal accountability.
-- To the poster who thinks that Universal Health Care will be some kind of "magic bullet" that fixes all problems . . . keep dreaming. It will guarantee that everyone is covered, but it will not guarantee lower prices for employees or employers. Many people seem to be laboring under the misconception that UHC is the same thing as Socialized Medicine (read: the care is paid for by taxes and/or mandatory insurance for individuals only); it IS closer to SM than we've ever been before, but it isn't exactly the same thing. For instance, John Edwards (perhaps THE biggest proponent of UHC says this on his website: "The Edwards plan achieves universal coverage by: Requiring businesses and other employers to either cover their employees or help finance their health insurance." He goes on to describe how he will make insurance (more) affordable; whether his model is workable or not I don't know, but the thought that UHC removes the "burden" from business is a fallacy.

It does sound like the company is setting itself up for a long class action litigation fight. But if I worked there and these new rules took effect, I think I'd slow my output in direct relationship to the amount the company is pinching from my paycheck.  I'm a Type I (42 yrs) and in better health than +85% of my co-workers.  But my A1C levels do fluctuate a bit. Nature of Type 1 Diabetes.  I'm not going to be penalized for an occasional high blood glucose level.

Pop goes your bubble! Alyssa from Minn.MN. is right.
There are very few overweight situations that are caused by things beond our control. Physical activity three times a week will reduce weight, blood pressure, and cholestrol. The habit of smoking flys in the face of logic with the stats we have on tobacco. Being in good health should be rewarded with a fifty percent break in health care premiums from the insurers.
I ask no one to pay for my bad habits, grow up and pull your own weight. I dont see any obesity in starving nations. You will feel so much better if you get in shape, mentally,physicaly and you wont be making excuses.

So.......where does the money from the fines go? Funny how that's not covered. Inquiring minds want to know.

  I am a Correctional Officer and would like to say high blood pressure and stress comes with the Job. What will the company pay us for the work schedule 365 days a year snd divorce rate caused by some working enviroments. I guess diabetics are just just have to work for nothing.

Simply put, MONEY.  MONEY is all companies are interested in.  Bottom line.  I suffer, as do my children with mental illness.  The average pills we take put on 30 lb.  We have no control over the medication we take or the co-pays we have to pay.  I like the person who says I have no objection to paying for the person with breast cancer, how about the person with mental health disease (genetic).  They cannot make mental illness disappear and unless the hospital is working with someone to make drugs for mental health patients that make them slim; this is discrimination.  Because this is America you do not have to work for these places.  If we continue to work for these places then other places will do the same thing and on and on.  Eventually, all of your paycheck will pay for your insurance and the company nothing.  That is what they want, the hospitals etc, to pay NOTHING for their employees.  We are only numbers an names, not people.  This country used to employ PEOPLE and the boss was aware of all of them and their families and now, MONEY.  We are no longer the greatest nation in the world, we are the greediest.  Greed produces nothing more than hatred and substandard care.  That is what will happen to this hospital.  If people have to pay for everything.  They will find other ways to get their money back.  You will not catch them either but they will find a way.  Such a shame to make your employees your ememies instead of your friends.

From the article:
"To combat the problem, beginning in 2009 Clarian employees will be charged up to $30 every two weeks for failing to meet standards set by the company in a number of areas. That breaks down to $10 for a body mass index that’s too high, and $5 each for smoking, high cholesterol, high blood sugar and high blood pressure."

So what's the big deal?  These issues are controllable, lose weight, quit smoking, change your lousy diet.

It's personal responsibility and yes the company can charge you extra via the policy if you want to continue to live your life without changes.

Why should I pay extra for your laziness?  Your health habits affect the rates I pay, why should I pay more than my share for your bad habits?

The article did not state that Clarian would not pay for the serious ilnesses, just that it would charge extra for your morbid obesity, high HDL and two-pack a day habit.

Quit your whining and accept the fact that your employer is not obligated to provide coverage and if they do, they are not obligated to accept or pay for the shortcomings of your unhealthy habits.

Grow up America, the free ride is over!

Let us look at the facts>
Smokers should stop the Cigs and make others more what! Healthy ? It cost others to much insurance money.
Should over weight people stop eating because it cost to much in insurance dollars.
Then drinkers should be under law to omly drink at home. Drinking cost others to much insurance dollars.
The biggest killers are those who drive CARS ! there should be an immediate law passed to prevent driving !
Because it cost to much for other drivers ?
Has or rights to freedom of choice come down to what others think cost them to much?
Perhaps there should be a law that we should all die young because it does cost a lot to get old ?
I would be a much better country if it didnt cost so much to help other countries, should we not help other countries because they SMOKE, DRINK, DRIVE, or don't do what I think is correct in my view.
The addage is * those in glass houses should not throw stones*
John Pratt Nasahville, Tennessee

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